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Post by Auburn on Dec 21, 2014 20:11:26 GMT
I figured this needs a discussion page all for its own. So in the entry page ( sindarinlibrary.com/entry.html ) we have dropdown menus authors can select to easily designate what mutation or influence is being applied. That would automatically insert the pre-written explanation of that mutation in the posted entry. But I don't know what all the mutations are, or their reasons for them. I mocked up this:  But it's obviously incomplete. Fiona, David, Jenna - would you guys like to take a stab at it? |
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Post by xandarien on Dec 21, 2014 21:19:10 GMT
Soft mutation dropdown also needs to include Following 'i'. I would also personally separate out Following a preposition from Following 'a' for this one.
Nasal mutation dropdown also needs to include Following 'in'.
Mixed mutation dropdown also needs Following plural prepositions but some separate out the en- mutation from anin/min etc. because of how en- also changes depending on what it's being added to.
Is I-verb past tense meant to be just the past tense of them, or I-affection which covers the other tenses too?
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Post by Auburn on Dec 21, 2014 21:56:41 GMT
Ah yes. And I think I know of a few more. I took notes last year, from your site and Fifi's, and this is what I came up with for Soft Mutation. How does it look to you guys?
Soft Mutation
Occurs when:
♦ The letter follows the word i, "the"/"that"/"who" (singular).
♦ It follows the word a, "and", only if it starts with a consonant.
♦ It is the direct object of a sentence.
♦ It is an adjective following a noun/pronoun.
♦ It is an adverb following a verb.
♦ It is a word that follows a preposition (including verb prefixes).
♦ It follows the negative prefix "-u" or "-ú".
♦ It is the beginning of the second element of most compound words.
♦ In words immediately following an imperative verb (unless it is the subject of the verb).
Would this be a complete list?
I'm not sure what would be best. If it didn't have i-affection included we'd need another menu to designate that change. I think if we do one dropdown option for each type of mutation, which covers all the changes done to the word, then that would work? So because past tense would imply the word's also a verb, then the i-affection comes also alongside the suffixing.
The other option would be to have an 'add dropdown' option below the first one, to add different mutations which all stack up on each other to produce all the changes applied to the word. What do you guys think of that?
My impression is it might make things less intuitive, because then the reader has to take that extra step and deduce how all the stacking is interacting. I think it'd be more effective as an all-in-one, what do u think?
So the menu would look something like:
...
...
I-verb (present)
I-verb (past)
I-verb (future)
...
...
etc
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Post by dreamingfifi on Dec 21, 2014 23:32:57 GMT
Soft Mutation/Vocalic Mutation/Lenition ♦ It is an adjective following a noun/pronoun. There has to be a specific relationship between the adjective and the noun for the adjective to be mutated. The adjective much be directly modifying the noun, as part of the noun phrase. If it's in the predicate, then it doesn't get mutated, unless the subject is a pronoun, then it could possibly be mutated or not, depending on the author's preference. ♦ It follows the negative prefix "-u" or "-ú". It should be "ú-", the way you have it written it'd be a suffix. ♦ It is the beginning of the second element of most compound words. Eeehh... this one is tricky. It depends on how old the compound is. It's safer to look at the last consonants of the compound and change the first consonant in response to them. Sometimes that means Lenition; sometimes that means Nasal Mutation; sometimes that means no mutation at all. In fact, you could say that there is as many types of mutation as there are word-final phonemes in Sindarin, we've just named the most productive and useful ones. ♦ In words immediately following an imperative verb (unless it is the subject of the verb). This is covered under adverbs and the object of the sentence being mutated. Past Tense The past tense isn't so clearly defined as I-verb/A-verb. Some A-verbs have I-verb like past tenses. So, a better way to look at it is Strong Past/Weak Past Tense. Weak Past Tense is made through the -nt/-s/-st suffixes alone. The Strong past tense is made through the vowel duplication, and depending on the verb, root-vowel lengthening or an N. Some examples: The past tense of soga- could be either sogant or uhunc. (E/388; VT/46:16) The past tense of Old Sindarin menta- is eméné. (PE/17:93) The reason is anologous changes to the conjugation system. A good example of this is what happened to the verb "catch" in English. The analogy for its past tense used to be: Snatch -> Snatched Catch -> Catched But now it is: Teach -> Taught Catch -> Caught So, whether or not an A-verb will have a weak past tense, especially later on, can't be easily predicted based on it being an A-verb alone. I-Affection When you find I-affection, it's usually the result of other things, like the plural -i suffix or the -i- in I-verb conjugations. I think that the thing causing the I-affection is more important to mark than I-affection itself. The other option would be to have an 'add dropdown' option below the first one, to add different mutations which all stack up on each other to produce all the changes applied to the word. What do you guys think of that? My impression is it might make things less intuitive, because then the reader has to take that extra step and deduce how all the stacking is interacting. I think it'd be more effective as an all-in-one, what do u think? So the menu would look something like: ... ... I-verb (present) I-verb (past) I-verb (future) ... ... etc I think that a better way to handle this is to have a database of parts of speech and the forces that act upon them, because that's quite predictable. So, you'd select the type of word, (noun, adjective, pronoun, verb, and so on) and it'd cause several other drop down menues to appear, like if it's a verb, a drop down menu for Conjugation (Imperative, Present Tense, Weak Past Tense, Past Participle, and so on) and if it's Mutated, select a reason, (prefixed adverb, pronoun, subordinate clause, and so on) then another menu appears: Type of Mutation (Vocalic, nasal... and so on) If it's a noun, you'd select whether or not it's got a definite article (the - this would automatically include the notations about Lenition and the singular/plural agreement with the noun), if it's plural (new list appears, what type of plural: regular, class, dual, and so on) then what case the noun is (nominative, accusative, dative, in a prepositional phrase) Get the idea? I think that this would be more intuitive, and include less clutter. |
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Post by Auburn on Dec 22, 2014 22:17:12 GMT
Update. So what I have so far is...
Part of Speech
Verb
Soft Mutation
Follows the word "i"
Follows the word "a"
Past Tense Mutation (Strong)
Past Tense Mutation (Weak)
Future Tense Mutation
Noun
Soft Mutation
Follows the word "i"
Follows the word "a"
It is the direct object of a sentence
It follows the prefix "u-" or "ú-"
Compound Mutation
Adjective
Soft Mutation
Directly Modifying a Noun
It is the subject of a Pronoun
-----------------
For things like Noun --> Compound Mutation, since it's so entirely variable, we can have that be the "end" of the dropdown menu chain, and then specify in the "Note" section how the compound was made.
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Post by dreamingfifi on Dec 23, 2014 1:56:23 GMT
Update. So what I have so far is... Part of Speech Verb Soft Mutation Follows the word "i" Follows the word "a" Past Tense Mutation (Strong) Past Tense Mutation (Weak) Future Tense Mutation Noun Soft Mutation Follows the word "i" Follows the word "a" It is the direct object of a sentence It follows the prefix "u-" or "ú-" Compound Mutation Adjective Soft Mutation Directly Modifying a Noun It is the subject of a Pronoun ----------------- For things like Noun --> Compound Mutation, since it's so entirely variable, we can have that be the "end" of the dropdown menu chain, and then specify in the "Note" section how the compound was made. Maybe, when formulating the menus, instead of focusing on what happens to the words, we should focus on why it's happening to the words. I'll try to illustrate this: Noun - Definite (y/n)
- Indefinite Annotation: Nothing is added.
- Singular-Definite Annotation: Uses the word i which causes Vocalic Mutation.
- Plural-Definite Annotation: Uses the word in which causes Nasal Mutation.
[li]Case[/li] - Nominative
- Genitive Annotation: Achieved through word order. The Genitive noun is placed after the other noun.
- Accusative Annotation: Is mutated with Soft Mutation.
- Oblique/Part of a Prepositional Phrase Annotation: Is mutated according to the preposition proceeding it.
- Indefinite
- an Annotation: Causes Long Mixed Mutation
- and so on and so on
[li]Singular Definite [/li] - en Annotation: Causes Mixed Mutation.
- and so on and so on
[li]Plural Definite[/li] - anin Annotation: Causes Nasal Mutation.
- and so on and so on
[/ul][li]Vocative Annotation: Even if the grammar calls for it to be mutated, it won't be.[/li][/ul][li]Number[/li] - Singular
- Dual Annotation: Uses the Suffix -d, which changes according to the end of the word...yadda yadda...
- Regular Plural Annotation: See full chart of the vowel changes here...
- Class Plural Annotation: Suffix -ath onto the end of the word, see chart of how -ath interacts with the ends of words...
- Special Plural: for the -rim and the -hoth and so on...
[/ul] So, you'd have something that looks like this: [word] = [english word] [menu-select type of word] [annotate here] From the menu, you select [Noun]. This causes the following new menues to pop-up, making it look like this: [word] = [english word] [Noun] [menu-is it Definite?] [menu-Which case is the noun in?] [menu-Is the noun Singular or not?] [annotate here] Then you'd select the various options, getting something that looks like this: [word] = [english word] [Noun] [Singular Definite] [Nominative] [Singular] [annotate here] Am I making any sense? |
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Post by Auburn on Dec 23, 2014 3:09:00 GMT
From Skype:
[5:59:07 PM] Auburn II: k! -reads- (this thread, reply ^)
[6:04:01 PM] Auburn II: nice! yeah I understand this one much better
[6:05:24 PM] Auburn II: though would you be manually writing up the annotation each time you post? ...like is the "annotation" field taking the place of the "Note" field?
or is the "annotation" more like the "reason" filed (as I previously called it), which can be archived in the PHP for future recall
[6:05:53 PM] Dreamingfifi: annotation/note/reason whatever you want to call it
[6:06:46 PM] Dreamingfifi: well, the things like [noun][nomintative][singular] would have annotations that would be automatically added to the description
[6:07:51 PM] Dreamingfifi: A noun is a person, place, thing, name of an action, personal name, or idea.
[6:08:26 PM] Dreamingfifi: A noun that is nominative is the subject, or "doer" of the action.
[6:09:49 PM] Dreamingfifi: A noun that is singular is representing one thing.
[6:10:32 PM] Dreamingfifi: THEN you'd have the annotations that are specific to that word, if you have any
[6:16:46 PM] Auburn II: yeah, I see. that will work. so the "annotation" will just be the final, "custom" note, but the other submenus will add their corresponding note. I think that'll capture everything pretty well
[6:17:42 PM] Dreamingfifi: yeah
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Post by dreamingfifi on Jan 8, 2015 10:27:25 GMT
Alright, here is my suggested morphology tree: Menu 1: Attested y/n - Attested Annotation: This word is was invented by Tolkien and appears unmodified in this text.
- Not Attested Annotation: This word was coined by fans, derived from Tolkien's work, but modified.
Menu 2: Type of Word - Noun
- Definite (y/n)
- Indefinite
- Definite
[li]Case[/li] - Nominative
- Genitive
- Accusative
- Oblique/Part of a Prepositional Phrase
- Vocative
- Diminutive
[li]Number[/li] - Singular
- Dual
- Regular Plural
- Class Plural
- Special Plural
[/ul][li]Verb[/li] - Negative y/n
- Yes, the negation verb u-
- Yes, the negation verb ava-
- No, regular verb (may or may not have a negation prefix on it, however)
[li]Conjugation[/li] - Infinitive
- Gerund
- Imperative
- Present
- Future
- Weak Past
- Strong Past
- Active Participle
- Strong Passive Participle
- Singular
- Plural
[li]Weak Passive Participle[/li] [li]Perfective Participle[/li][/ul][li]Person[/li] - Not Applicable
- 1st singular
- 1st dual
- 1st plural
- 2nd familiar singular
- 2nd familiar dual
- 2nd familiar plural
- 2nd reverential singular
- 2nd reverential dual
- 2nd reverential plural
- 3rd singular
- 3rd dual
- 3rd plural
[li]Valency[/li] - Not Applicable
- Impersonal Verb
- Intransitive Verb
- Transitive Verb
- Ditransitive Verb
[li]Verb Class[/li] - I-Verb
- A-Verb
- Irregular Verb
[/ul][li]Adjectives[/li] - Predicate y/n
- No - It's part of a noun phrase
- No - It's part of a prepositional phrase
- Yes - It's part of the predicate
[li]Number[/li] [/ul][li]Adverbs[/li] - Prefix/Independent
- Prefixed onto a word
- Independent word, part of a verb phrase
- Independent word, part of an adjective phrase
[/ul][li]Pronouns[/li] - Type of Pronoun
- Personal
- 1st singular
- 1st dual
- 1st plural
- 2nd familiar singular
- 2nd familiar dual
- 2nd familiar plural
- 2nd reverential singular
- 2nd reverential dual
- 2nd reverential plural
- 3rd singular
- 3rd dual
- 3rd plural
- Reflexive
[li]Demonstrative[/li][li]Interrogative[/li][li]Relative[/li] [li]Indefinite[/li][/ul][li]Case[/li] - Nominative
- Genitive
- Oblique
- Dative
- Adjective
[li]Independent/Suffix[/li] - Independent Pronoun
- Possessive Suffix
- Nominative Verb-suffix
[/ul][li]Definite Article[/li] [li]Prepositions[/li] - Prefix
- With Definite Article Included
- Singular
- Plural
[li]Independent[/li][/ul][li]Negation Prefix[/li][li]Number[/li] [li]Conjunctions[/li] - And
- But
- Or
- Subordinate Conjunction
- Conditional Conjunction
[li]Idiom[/li][li]Interjection[/li][/ul]Menu 3: Mutation - Causing Mutation
- Not Applicable
- Soft/Vocalic/Lenition
- Nasal(N)
- Mixed
- Liquid(L/R)
- Stop(D)
- H
- DH
[li]Receiving Mutation[/li] - Not Applicable
- Soft/Vocalic/Lenition
- Nasal(N)
- Mixed
- Liquid(L/R)
- Stop(D)
- H
- DH
[/ul] Next, to add in the annotations. Did I miss something? ETA: Numbers! |
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Post by Auburn on Mar 24, 2015 19:52:43 GMT
Okay, I've added this whole morphology tree to the software now. 0.0
Took a while...! However, it doesn't have any of the explanations/notes (since I don't know this).
But at least now we can designate words properly!
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Post by xandarien on Mar 25, 2015 16:12:28 GMT
Corrected a few errors (you'd put definitive not definite throughout). I also happen to know the alt codes of the most used accented vowels off by heart (0250 is ú) so I changed those.
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